Matti Pitkanen and Seth on time

I was responding to something he had written to Quantum Mind on the nature of time. I believe it was the post at:

http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind9812&L=quantum-mind&D=0&O=T&P=10767

Here is an edited version of the entire dialogue:

[Matti]

The advances in understanding of time (I hope that they are real) were triggered by some question in the quantum mind discussion group. My basic problem was to understand why the arrow of psychological time and why psychological time at all: moments of consciousness correspond to quantum jumps between quantum *histories*. In this framework one would expect that contents of conscious experience are diffused over entire histories and the problem is to understand how the time-localized component of CS [Conscious Selection] experience results.

I had understood how the concepts of conscious experience can be localized to a definite value of geometric time for a particular experiencer (that is particular irreducible part of conscious experience). I had also idea about how local arrow comes. But this was not enough as I thought.

I did not realize that basic difficulty was caused by my sticking to the common sense idea that given moment of consciousness corresponds to *definite value of cosmological time*: all experiencers of the universe live just this particular moment of cosmic time about 10^11 years or so.

There is no need to assume this!! Each moment of consciousness decomposes into separate conscious experiences with values of psychological time ranging from zero to infinity. The civilizations of geometric past still live and flourish and versions of me come behind me in geometric time propagate as waves of free will. I live my life again and again, rebirth happens roughly at 1950 again and again! (Unless there is some kind of liberation from this time cycle of Karma!), Each life is a little bit better by p-adic evolution (which was a second big discovery during last half year).

[Barry]

This concept is remarkably similar to something that Seth said in an unpublished early session. Here is a quote from that session:

"Space and time are constructions of ideas. They do not appear physically, as say a table or a chair, yet they seem to define both a table and a chair, in that you cannot easily conceive of a piece of furniture, for example, existing except in the medium of space and time.

"The ideas of space and time are constructed in different ways in various systems. In some they appear as natural phenomena, for example as various classifications of objects, in some as variations of sound or light. You find it exceedingly difficult to consider existence at all without space and time, yet basically consciousness is independent of both.

"The ideas of space and time emerge only when consciousness adopts camouflage, only when it becomes wedded, in other words, with a physical type existence. Time and space are both creations of consciousness, in other words, and vehicles of its expression.

"Matter is a classification. As explained in my book, various levels of concentration can be used as platforms leading you out of focus, into other time schemes. Time is like color. You are merely focusing upon one hue. (10:39)

"Your present civilization and the ‘old’ Sumerian (spelled) civilization, exist at once, then simultaneously, but to speak to you about these I must use a time sequence you understand. If it were understood that these civilizations exist at once, then you would not be so surprised that they ‘were’ able to build structures that you cannot build in your now.

"Your now and their now exists now.

"In the present physical area in which it seems to you that a physical civilization once existed, that civilization still exists. You cannot meet it though you stand at the same spot, because of the ideas of time that separate you. The civilization in flower, and the ruins, coexist. The living ancient Sumerians pass the modern tourists without seeing them, even as the tourists walk in the middle of the old Sumerian marked places and see only ruins.

"Much of this could be explained n mathematical equations that presently escape you. Your own consciousness is contemporary with the ancient Sumerians (spelled) as well as with your current selves in your terms.

(10:46) "Think of countries existing simultaneously now on your planet. There are differences in language and culture, and it takes a certain amount of earth time to travel through space to visit them. In the same way all times exist at once, with their peculiar customs, and in your terms within the same space that you know.

"You have learned how to make roads through space, but not through time on a conscious level. There are intersections n time and space, however, that you have not recognized. I am speaking in your terms, hopefully to make this simpler. (Pause.) Times exist then as surely as places. You think of time as moving toward something, and of space as relatively stable.

"It does not occur to you then that you can get to times, as you can get to places. (Pause at 10:53.) All of this is highly difficult to explain. I do not mean for example that time, each moment, is a finished and done thing to be visited. While time is not moving in a particular direction, in your terms, each moment explodes outwards, or expands outward in all directions.

"Space and time as you understand them ripple through each other. They do not behave as you think they do, however. Presently you understand your existence only as it intrudes into three dimensions. Its own activity is in many other dimensions however.

"The Sumari, therefore, appear in or intrude into the three dimensional system from other dimensions.

"Now you may take a break or end the session as you prefer."

Rob: "We’ll take the break."

___________________________________

[Matti]

Therefore subjective world is really 4-dimensional! It is only various components of conscious experience, which contain mainly information about 3-dimensional section of quantum history and create the common sense illusion that all other conscious beings live the same time. It is the 'timelike' counterpart of pre-Keplerian illusion about Earth as the center of the Universe: space is only replaced with time in this illusion.

It is somewhat frustrating to find , that all consciousness theory builders having some name share this common sense belief (to say nothing about physicists) and refuse to spend a second for pondering the possibility that it might be illusion. This despite the logical contradictions implied by time=constant snapshot world view in quantum theory.

[Barry]

Your analogy to the geocentric world view is really quite apt. Then we saw the earth as the center of a small universe, now we see the universe as extending to physical infinity. Unfortunately we still see time as starting with the big bang and ending with entropic heat death. We are only beginning to expand our awareness to where it can encompass infinite time. Only a few are even beginning to expand their comprehension of time "horizontally" to include infinite probable realities.

Here is some more Seth stuff on time:

Time quotes from Seth Speaks

The soul's perceptions are not dependent upon time, because time is a physical camouflage and does not apply to nonphysical reality.

Time does not consist of a series of moments, one before the other, though you perceive it now in that fashion. Events are not things that happen to you. They are materialized experiences formed by you according to your expectations and beliefs.

There was no beginning and there will be no end.

What you perceive of time is a portion of other events intruding into your own system, often interpreted as movement in space, or as something that separates events - if not in space, then in a way impossible to define without using the concept of time.

What separates events is not time, but your perception. You perceive events "one at a time." Time as it appears to you is instead a psychic organization of experience. The seeming beginning and end of an event, the seeming birth and death, are simply other dimensions of experience as, for example, height, width, weight

Though it seems to you that reincarnational existences involve past and future events, they are existences parallel or adjacent to your own present life and consciousness. Other aspects of your greater entity exist, relatively speaking, about or around these.

There is interaction between you and your reincarnational selves constantly, . . . there is "constant action across the board."

Time Quotes from "The 'Unknown' Reality"

At 9:45 PM 2/27/74, Seth said:

Now: Basically, the cell's comprehension straddles time as you think of it. Period.

Mankind's consciousness, however, experimented along time-specific lines. As he developed along those lines, various biological and mental methods of selectivity and discrimination were utilized. When in historic terms mankind became aware of memory, and recalled his past as a past in your terms, it was possible for him to confuse past and present. Vivid memories, out of context but given immediate neurological validity, could compete with the brilliant focus necessary in his present.

Though the past is actually quite as immediate, alive, and creative as the present is, man made certain adjustments, on several layers, that would focus definite distinctions and set past and present experience apart. While your particular kind of consciousness was developing, it began to intensify selectivity, to concentrate specifically in a small area of activity while blocking out other data. This was necessary because the particular kind of physical manipulation of corporal existence required instant physical response to immediately present stimuli.

(9:55.) Such selectivity and specialization therefore represented a pertinent method, as consciousness familiarized itself with earthly experience. Hunters had to respond at once to the present situation. In time terms, the "present" animal had to be killed for food—not the "past" animal. That animal—the past one—existed as surely as the one presently perceived, yet in man's context, physical action had to be directed to a highly specific area, for physical survival depended upon it.

(Pause, and slowly:) The cells' basic innocence of time discrimination had to be bypassed. At deeply unconscious levels the neurological structure is more highly adaptable than it appears. Adjustments were made, therefore. Basically, the neurological structure responds to both past and future data Biologically, then, such activity is built-in. The specialized "new" kind of consciousness in one body had to respond pinpoint fast. Therefore it focused upon only one series of neurological messages.

(As Seth, Jane was enunciating the material very carefully, almost syllable by syllable, as though to give me time to write it down without error. Her diction in trance is usually excellent, though; it's not often that I have to ask her to repeat a word or phrase.)

These became more and more biologically prominent, so that man's consciousness rode them, or leaped upon them. These particular pulses or messages became the biologically and mentally accepted ones. They were clued into sense perception, then. These pulses or messages became the only official data that, translated into sense perception, formed physical reality. This selectivity gave an understandable line of reference from interior to exterior existence.

(10:10. Deliberately but intently:) Other quite-as-valid messages were ignored. They became, while present, biologically invisible. The cells still reacted to these otherwise neglected pulses, as they needed data from both the past and future to maintain the body's balance in "the present." The necessity for immediate conscious exterior action at a "definite" point of intersection with events was left to the emerging ego consciousness.

While the cells required future and past data, and used it to form from that invisible tension the body's present corporal reality, the same kind of information could be a threat then to the ego consciousness, which could be overwhelmed. Within the corporal structure, however, there are indeed messages that leap too quickly or too slowly from your viewpoint to allow for any physical response. In that way cellular comprehension is allowed its free flow; but the selectivity mentioned (in sessions 682-3) bypasses such information, so that it does not conflict with present sense data requiring physical action in time.

Other pulses, carrying messages, are quite as valid as those that you perceive and physically react to. Again, the cells respond to those constantly. The body, as mentioned (in the 685th session) is an electromagnetic pattern, poised in a web of probabilities, experienced as corporal at an intersection point in space and time.

When man, speaking in your terms of history, began to experiment with memory, there were innumerable instances where the emerging ego consciousness did not distinguish clearly enough between the past and present, as you understand them.

The past, in the present, would appear so brilliantly that man could not react adequately in circumstances of time that he had himself created. The future was blocked, practically speaking (long pause), to preserve freedom of action and to encourage physical exploration, curiosity, and creativity. With memory, however, mental projections into the future were of course also possible so that man could plan his activities in time, and foresee probable results: "Ghost images" of the future probabilities always acted as mental stimuli for physical explorations in all areas, and of all kinds.

____________________________________

Please note that this passage ties together the concept of microtubule CS from both past and future as well as probable or multiple realities. It gives an "evolutionary" reason for our present lack of awareness regarding future and past perceptions. Though Seth uses the term "cell" it is obvious that he is talking about cellular structures as well.

In an earlier session in The Unknown Reality, Seth described the conscious selection from probable realities a bit further:

Body is also pattern Period. While the material that composes it changes constantly, the pattern maintains its own integrity. The form is etched in space and time, and yet the pattern itself exists outside of that framework also—the body is a projection, therefore, into the three-dimensional field.

The consciousnesses of the cells within it, however, are eternal. The physical framework, then, is itself composed of immortal stuff. The projection in time and space may disappear, in your terms, wither and die. The main identity continues to exist, even as the consciousnesses of millions of cells still exist that at one time were part of the body.

(A one-minute pause at 9:59.)

While inhabited by the usual human consciousness, the living body operates as an intense focus point. The conglomeration of consciousnesses within it on all levels focuses its own network of communication. This private network is connected to all others like it. There are levels of interaction then simply between all bodies, electromagnetically and biologically. The network is more far-reaching than that, however. Not only can all cells respond to each other, but their mass activity triggers even higher centers of consciousness to respond to a given set of world conditions, rather than to other quite-as-legitimate world conditions that do not fit the accepted pattern. Probabilities to some extent, then, are determined along cellular lines. This should be obvious.

(A long pause, one of many, at 10:07.) The body's very structure will in itself set patterns for the kinds of probabilities that can be practically experienced. The source-reality out of which all else springs is never predetermined—that is, predestined, or even set. The universe in any terms is always being created. Period.

When consciousness is being specified, it always sees itself at the center of its world. All specifications of consciousness and all phenomenal appearances occur when the basic units of consciousness, the CU's [Consciousness Units, might correspond to quantum foam], emerge into EE [Electromagnetic Energy] units, and hence into the dimensions of actuality in your terms. Your mainly accepted normal consciousness is within the matter of your body, and through it—the body—you view your world. There is nothing to prevent you from viewing your body from a standpoint outside of it, except that you have been taught that consciousness is imprisoned within the flesh.

________________________________

In another section of the same book Seth talks about a sort of hereditary "back action" from the future:

For example: It is truer to say that heredity operates from the future backward into the past, than it is to say that it operates from the past into the present. Neither statement would be precisely correct in any case, because your present is a poised balance affected as much by the probable future as the probable past.

At no time, as a rule, is your body not here to you. Your experience seems centered within it, with the rest of the world safely outside. However, the particular selectivity of your kind of consciousness rides over lapses that you do not recognize. In a manner of speaking, your bodies blink off and on like lights. Their reality fluctuates, from your standpoint. For that matter, so does the physical universe.

You can understand what is meant by saying that your consciousness fluctuates—for each individual is aware of various intensities and concentrations. You are more alert, or, in your terms, more conscious on some occasions than others. Now the same applies to these units of consciousness—and to atoms, molecules, electrons, and other such phenomena. The world literally blinks off and on. This reality of fluctuation in no way bothers your own feeling of consistency, however. The "holes (spelled) of nonexistence" are plugged up by the process of selectivity. This process chooses significances then, again, around which experience is built, and around which "life" is felt. The very sensations of one kind of life then automatically set up barriers against other such "world-schemes" that do not correlate with their own.

It is impossible for you to examine an atom, a cell, or anything else except in your now. Period. Because your sense experience follows a time pattern that you can understand, then you take it for granted that a cell, for example, is the result of its past, and that its present condition arises from the past. The fetus grows into an adult, not because it is programmed from the past, but because it is to some extent precognitively aware of its probabilities, and from the "future" then imprints this information into the past structure.

From your viewpoint, however, an examination of a cell will not show you that, but only its present condition. It should appear obvious from what I am saying that neither future nor past is predetermined. From your platform of poised now-experience, You alter both the past and the future, and that alteration, that change, that action, causes your point of immediate sense life.

(Long pause.) The precious privacy of your existence, and indeed of your universe, is all the more miraculous, so to speak, precisely because its probable reality emerges from an infinite field of probabilities, each forever inviolate. (Long pause.) It is important that these ideas be considered.

You cannot separate your beliefs about reality from the reality that you experience. That is, your beliefs about reality form it. Your ideas about what is possible and what is not possible are reflected in all areas.

It is almost impossible to begin with concepts of one isolated universe, one self at the mercy of its past, one time sequence, and end up with any acceptable theory of a multi-dimensional soul or godhead that is anything else but a glorified personified concept of what you think man is.

Not only do your metaphysics and sciences suffer, but your daily experience as a human being is far less than it could be. There are, then, probabilities quite present, and for that matter biologically practical, that would allow for a change in individual consciousness so great as literally to propel the race into another level of experience entirely. As in your terms the cavemen ventured out into the daylight of the earth, so there is a time for man to venture out into a greater knowledge of his subjective reality, to explore the dimensions of selfhood and go beyond the small areas of himself in which he has thus far found shelter.

These quotes are from "The Unknown Reality" by Jane Roberts.

[Matti]

I must say that similarities between time concepts of Seth and TGD are amazing. I am totally convinced that doing good science is to achieve higher states of consciousness and to translate them to the existing language. Jane has used language of poetry and I have used language of mathematics. If my own view is correct (I hope that I am the lucky one: all prophets in qmind are absolutely certain that they have found the final truth!(:-)) , then I must conclude that the deepness of insights represented in Seth overcomes totally that of the models in fashion.

*******

[Barry]

This concept is remarkably similar to something that Seth said in an unpublished early session. Here is a quote from that session:

****

[Matti ]

I do not agree here completely. I believe that geometric spacetime is real. What I regard as a construction is the idea about subjective time development as time=constant snapshot shifting gradually in future direction. This standard picture of physicists I regard as simply wrong.

*********

[Barry new]

Seth is not saying that geometric spacetime is not real but rather that physical reality is composed of mind stuff.

[MP]

I agree in the sense that I believe physical reality to be composed of mind stuff in the sense that quantum states=quantum histories=objective realities can be regarded as 'ideas'. They are not conscious however: conscious mind is associated with quantum jumps between 'ideas'.

[Barry quoting Seth]

"Your present civilization and the ‘old’ Sumerian civilization, exist at once, then simultaneously, but to speak to you about these I must use a time sequence you understand. If it were understood that these civilizations exist at once, then you would not be so surprised that they ‘were’ able to build structures that you cannot build in your now.

[Matti]

The talk about coexisting civilizations was really amazing. I have used exactly the same metaphor about civilizations of future and past co-existing simultaneously with us consciously. Simultaneity is however with respect to subjective time, not geometric time (of course).

**********

[Barry continuing Seth quote]

"Your now and their now exists now."

*********

[Matti]

All really deep and new ideas look paradoxical because they must be expressed using the language of existing world view I think that the paradoxical language used by Seth when talking about time results basically from the fact that there are basically *two* times. The geometric time of physicists and the subjective time measured by quantum jumps occurred. There is also the psychological time, which exists only under some conditions (when contents of conscious experience are concentrated around single value of geometric time), and which Seth actually talks about later. When one realizes the presence of two times, the paradox disappears but poetry is lost.

***********

[MP]

Just a comment. I learned from my elder son, who is Stephen King fan, that his time concept resembles that of 'cosmology of consciousness'! If my son is right, King has build his entire production around the idea that civilizations of past live still in some sense. It would be interesting to know how many writers have proposed this time concept.

[Barry new]

Seth has a great metaphor for this concept. I have attached an excerpt from The Unknown Reality Volume 2 which uses this metaphor. Here is a short introduction to this metaphor:

As all physical matter is connected in any particular time, or era, so the individual consciousness of each being is also connected with every other. This applies to all consciousnesses as you understand that term.

A mountain is composed of many layers of rock that serve, as you think of it, as its foundation. The top of the mountain represents the present to you, and the tiers of rock beneath stand for the past. The mountain itself is not any one of those rock layers that seemingly compose it, however. There is a relationship between the mountain and those strata, but the term "mountain" is one that you have applied. In greater terms the mountain and all of its components exist at once, of course. You can examine the various levels of rock structure. Geologists can tell when, in terms of time, certain sedimentary deposits formed. The rocks themselves still exist in the geologists' present time, or they could not make such an examination. The mountain would not be a mountain without that "foundation." Again, however, it is not any one of those rock layers.

Now In somewhat the same manner, the self that you know is the mountain, and the rock layers forming it are past lives.

You are not any of those past selves, even though they are a part of the history of your being. They are themselves in their own space and time. They exist simultaneously with your own life, even as the strata of rock exist simultaneously with the mountain.

Your present existence, however, is highly related to those other levels of selfhood. Now what happens at the top of the mountain affects all that goes on below, and so everything that you do affects those other realms of selfhood, and there is an interchange that occurs constantly. Physical conditions may be quite different in the valley, in the foothills of the mountain, and at its top.

Session 727 519

The very climate and vegetation may vary considerably and yet all life and vegetation within the area are interrelated. Each layer of life that composes the mountain—

("Is 'life' the word you want used there?" This is one of the few times I've interrupted Seth during his presentation of "Unknown" Reality.)

Yes . . . life that composes the mountain is equally valid and important, and each concentrates upon its own reality at its own level.

Like the mountain, therefore, you have a history in terms of the present that is yours, and yet not yours. It does not control you, for you alter it with each thought and action, even as each motion at the mountain's top affects its base. The layers at the bottom, however, are also constantly changing, so that the whole area is a gestalt of relatedness.

(Pause at 9:43.) In the physical world, islands, valleys, plateaus, continents and oceans all have their place, and serve to form the physical basis of your reality. Each blade of grass helps form the life of the earth. So each consciousness, however minute, is indispensable in its place and time.

Each flower on a hillside looks out with its own unique vision of the world, and each consciousness does the same thing, fulfilling a position impossible for any other consciousness to fulfill.

(Most emphatically:) In terms of time only, there is an archaeological meaning that is hidden within your own nature. To discover it you look "down" through the levels of your own being, there to find the layers of selfhood that in your world represent the past history of yourself, from which you emerged. You are not those selves psychically, however, any more than you are your mother's or your father's in physical terms. You are as different from those reincarnational selves, therefore, as you are from your parents, though you share certain backgrounds and characteristics.

It is easy for you to see how you affect your parents in your lifetime, though they are older than you. In the same way, however, you affect your reincarnational family.

(Pause.) When it rains, water rushes in great exuberant gushes down the sides of the mountain, bringing life and vitality to all of its parts. In somewhat the same way, your own experiences flow down and into the cracks and crevices of all the other times and centuries that compose your present lifetime.

[MP]

This is a really beautiful metaphor. I talked myself about 4-dimensional society with the next door neighbor of mine being me but this is something more convincing.

[Barry continuing Seth quote]

(With a smile.) I have a surprise for you, however, for I have been speaking of you as the top of our mountain—for it certainly seems to you that you are at the top, so to speak. Instead, your vantage point and your focus is such that you cannot turn your head

520 Section 6

to look higher. Perhaps you are like a fine sunny cliff on the side of the mountain, jutting out, looking down to the valley beneath, not realizing that the mountain itself continues [up] beyond you. You are, then, in the position of any of the other levels "beneath," many also thinking themselves the top of the mountain, looking only downward.

You are convinced that you cannot see the future, and this means—in terms of our analogy, at least—that you cannot look upward beyond your own time. While that is the case, you will always think of reincarnation as occurring in the past.

(Very definitely at 10:02.) Think instead of strata of being, each simultaneously occurring. Physically the human fetus bears a memory of its "past." In your terms, it travels through the stages of evolution before attaining its human form. It attains that form, however, because it responds to a future time,2 a future self not as yet physically created.

[Matti]

I hope that it does not escape anymore(:-)!

********

[Barry new]

This is my hope as well.

[Barry continuing Seth quote]

****

[Matti]

I remember two lively dreams [actually I believed during this dream (or what I should call it) that I am completely awake]. The people who had lived for decades ago in my small apartment became visible. They were still living their lives. This was strange and terrifying. In the second dream I woke up to the sounds coming from outside: a group of laughing merry people walking and dancing in the street. The shock was absolute certainty of these people belonging to past. I have certainly pondered a lot about the message of these dreams but have not been able to make the decisive step to 'cosmology of consciousness'.

*********

[Barry new]

There are many "Practice Elements" in Unknown Reality which can be used to help learn greater conscious dream control as well as greater understanding and control of these types of non-local time interactions.

[Matti]

[Barry]

Your analogy to the geocentric world view is really quite apt. Then we saw the earth as the center of a small universe, now we see the universe as extending to physical infinity. Unfortunately we still see time as starting with the big bang and ending with entropic heat death. We are only beginning to expand our awareness to where it can encompass *infinite time*(!!). Only a few are even beginning to expand their comprehension of time "horizontally" to include infinite probable realities.

[Matti]

One of the discoveries during last half year was infinite primes and the realization that each moment of consciousness decomposes into subexperiences with values of psychological time ranging from zero to infinity. In particular, literally *infinite* (see above) values of psychological time are involved.

Assuming that geometric time development and evolution by quantum jumps correspond to each other roughly, this means that the experiencers of infinite future must be God like as compared to us! Gods exist!

What is needed in order to participate to this kind of experience is to get quantum entangled with this kind of experiencer (do not ask me how!(:-)). Perhaps the religious and mystic experiences, and the experience of the Jane in particular, result from this kind of quantum entanglement. But certainly, Jane must express her experience using the world view and language of her culture and this means that the language used is necessary paradoxical and that these experiences can give rise to wrong interpretations.

For me the discovery of hierarchy of consciousnesses was very satisfying since the theory of infinite numbers has been regarded as mathematized theology, in which the ultimate largest, never reachable infinity is the equivalent of God.

*******

[Barry new]

The "how" for this kind of experience is well described in the sacred literature of yoga and also in the Seth books. In a sense the ancient Hindus had a science of consciousness. Their procedures were repeatable and outcomes were predictable. Isn't this the core of science?

[MP]

It certainly is. Higher states of consciousness can be achieved by methods having description in standard language of science. Of course, the idea that we could have technology of enlightenment sounds banal but it could exist. Subject person is in 'think tank' in sensory deprivation and sounds with slightly differing frequencies are fed in both ears. Often 'enlightened' states and religious experiences result. From the point of view of materialistic scientist conclusion is obvious: since religious experiences can be produced copiously so that they differ in no ways from pain in the neck.

From my point of view, since the method eliminates sensory input, it could make possible entanglement with 'civilizations of future'. Under normal conditions this kind of quantum entanglement would be quite too weak and strong form of negentropy maximization principle would favour ordinary conscious experiences. What is the role of the sound (Om!) is mystery to me.

[Barry continuing Seth quotes]

The soul's perceptions are not dependent upon time, because time is a physical camouflage and does not apply to nonphysical reality.

****

[MP]

I would go even further and say that 'I' is created by these experiences: only a sequence of experiences exist subjectively and at fundamental level no continuous streams of consciousness exist. CSC idea leads to homunculus idea and this in turn to the paradox since one must assume infinite series of homunculi inside homunculi. Of course, the idea about CSC is a good approximation in practices of everyday life.

[Matti]

I would say that geometric time does not consists of series of moments. Subjective time consists. And only under special conditions moments of subjective time correspond to an increasing series of geometric time.

*****

[Barry new]

Early in the Seth sessions he often noted that his expression of these concepts were limited by Jane's experience and vocabulary probably in much the same way as you are limited in what you can say to me by my lack of understanding of the language of mathematics.

[Jane]

There was no beginning and there will be no end.

*******

[Matti]

This idea is extremely deep. How I express it is as follows. Geometric time has beginning: the moment of big bang. *Subjective* time however cannot have no beginning: there can be no first quantum jump.

The motivation for arguing this is that this would lead to a deep philosophical problem: what was the first quantum state (history) and quantum jump between histories concept solves this problem if their is no first quantum jump. In standard physics the problem of initial state is very acute (the only known, very unsatisfactory, solution is to say that initial state was what it was because otherwise we would not be here).

The p-adic evolution implies that the p-adic prime characterizing the 3-surfaces gradually increases. If infinite number of quantum jumps has already occurred, this prime must be infinite! This led to the construction of the theory of infinite primes. The great surprise was that this theory can be regarded as a repeated quantization of quantum field theory such that the many particle states of previous level become single particle states at the new level. Also the basic structures of quantum measurement theory and TGD inspired theory of consciousness have counterparts in this construction (in particular subsystem-complement decomposition). So, this innocent sounding state "There was no beginning and there will no end" has given rise to a new branch of mathematics!(:-)

[Barry new]

Seth often talked about how our time perspective pushes us into looking at things from a sequential, cause and effect prejudice. Mystics strive to locate their consciousness in the "eternal present" in order to get out of this cause and effect world. The speak of the cause and effect world viewpoint as being tied to the wheel of karma.

[MP]

I have been reading neuropsychology (my ambitious aim now is to try to build coherent and concrete overall view about how quantum brain works) and it seems that left brain is really the creator of time order. Perhaps right hemisphere has better ability to get entangled with 'civilizations of future' and have timeless experiences.

[Barry continuing Seth quotes]

[Matti]

Psychological time defined as the value of geometric time around which contents of conscious experience are concentrated leads to this picture.

********

[Seth quote]

[Matti]

This was also one of the amazing conclusions I ended up in cosmology of consciousness.

*****

[Barry new]

That is how I can tell you are on the right track. I certainly can't tell it by my pathetic understanding of mathematics. :-)

[Barry continuing Seth quotes]

With memory, however, mental projections into the future were of course also possible so that man could plan his activities in time, and foresee probable results: "Ghost images" of the future probabilities always acted as mental stimuli for physical explorations in all areas, and of all kinds.

____________________________________

[Matti]

The picture about gradual evolution of experiencers with contents located around single value of geometric time is in accordance with TGD picture. I however believe that the idea that our contents of conscious experience are localized around single value of geometric time is partly an illusion. There is diffuse component coming from entire quantum histories and this could give rise to intuition. Also multimoments are possible. I could experience simultaneously with what I call 'recent' also events from my childhood, youth. Perhaps old people who return at the level of subjective experience to their childhood really live in their childhood.

********

[Barry new]

In some of the Seth books Jane and her husband relate their personal examples of this type of multi-moment experience. Her fiction books about Oversoul 7 give a wonderful account of how old folks loose their firm connection to linear time.

In an earlier session in The Unknown Reality, Seth described the conscious selection from probable realities a bit further:

Body is also pattern Period. While the material that composes it changes constantly, the pattern maintains its own integrity. The form is etched in space and time, and yet the pattern itself exists outside of that framework also The body is a projection, therefore, into the three-dimensional field.

[Matti]

"The consciousness of cells within it are eternal": a possible interpretation is that geometric past still exists and have moments of consciousness. TGD however predicts that this geometric past is subject to evolution since quantum jumps between histories occur all the time.

********

[Barry new]

See the attached document for Seth's discussion of this concept.

*****

[Matti]

Moment of consciousness as replacement of old universe=quantum history with a new one is just what TGD claims.

********

[Barry new]

I thought as much.

________________________________

In another section of the same book Seth talks about a sort of hereditary "back action" from the future:

*****

[Matti]

I would rather speak of quantum jumps between quantum histories. The entire spacetime (which is defined as 'quantum average spacetime') is replaced with a new one in each quantum jump. For instance, each moment of consciousness I have changes also my past and affects the life of civilizations there.

********

[Barry new]

The first explorers of a new area get to name the geological features of the area. Sometimes when two explorers explore simultaneously there is a dispute over which names will be used.

[Matti]

This could be interpreted as a metaphor for quantum jumping. Given subsystem does not possess continuous stream of consciousness but performs now and then quantum jump that is 'blinks'.

********

[Barry new]

Works for me.

[Jane Roberts quote]

This reality of fluctuation in no way bothers your own feeling of consistency, however. The "holes (spelled) of nonexistence" are plugged up by the process of selectivity.

****

[Matti]

It is not possible to be conscious of being not conscious.

******

[Barry new]

Buddhist/Taoist concept of "no mind".